<?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8'?><?xml-stylesheet href="http://www.blogger.com/styles/atom.css" type="text/css"?><feed xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom' xmlns:openSearch='http://a9.com/-/spec/opensearchrss/1.0/' xmlns:georss='http://www.georss.org/georss' xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3417045549881117035</id><updated>2012-02-16T10:54:49.297-08:00</updated><title type='text'>Either, Or and More</title><subtitle type='html'></subtitle><link rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#feed' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://eitherorandmore.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3417045549881117035/posts/default?max-results=100'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://eitherorandmore.blogspot.com/'/><link rel='hub' href='http://pubsubhubbub.appspot.com/'/><author><name>HNK</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12053479449588483364</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='24' height='32' src='http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ebhtn-xTJcg/SNxKyUsgDuI/AAAAAAAAAAM/Tl1geImwJ_4/S220/HNK+photo+for+web.JPG'/></author><generator version='7.00' uri='http://www.blogger.com'>Blogger</generator><openSearch:totalResults>3</openSearch:totalResults><openSearch:startIndex>1</openSearch:startIndex><openSearch:itemsPerPage>100</openSearch:itemsPerPage><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3417045549881117035.post-8438478142761317464</id><published>2011-02-28T17:06:00.000-08:00</published><updated>2011-02-28T20:53:59.904-08:00</updated><title type='text'>A Nation is Born</title><content type='html'>&lt;div style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: large;"&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Garden Keeper:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; Peace, Sahelnomad! It’s been a while. Things are quite volatile in North Africa right now and I know you are very familiar with that scene, having lived in Africa for the past couple of decades.&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Sahelnomad:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; Very amazing events, to be sure – who could have predicted all this a year ago?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Desert Bum:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; Yes, but what is getting lost in all this news of inter-Arab turmoil is the birth of a new non-Arab nation in the neighborhood.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Garden Keeper:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; That’s right. We now have our first new nation (South Sudan) in Africa in almost two decades.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum:&lt;/b&gt; I’m wondering, Sahelnomad, your thoughts on what impact a new nation in southern Sudan will have on things in North Africa, especially in the Sahel.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper:&lt;/b&gt; Remind me what the Sahel is…&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;The &lt;a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Sahel_Map-Africa_rough.png"&gt;transitional geographical east-west band&lt;/a&gt; across Africa that divides the continent between the Sahara Desert to the north and the Savannas to the south.&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper:&lt;/b&gt; Oh, yes. The Sahel is also a cultural transition zone between the Arab and Muslim north and the black Christian south, isn’t it?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;It's not as easy as Arab/Muslim and Black/non-Muslim. The ethnic lines were more blurred in ancient Sudan and Egypt, with some experts unsure of how to classify the population. Before the late Middle Ages, most of Sudan was the Christian Kingdom of Nubia, when it was then destroyed by Islamic Egypt. The influx of Arabs and other "northerners" in the Middle Ages pushed the northern limit of Blacks further south, at the same time sharpening the divide.&lt;b&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Sahelnomad:&lt;/b&gt; &lt;span style="color: black;"&gt;South Sudan today is indeed a mix.&amp;nbsp; It is generally misunderstood that the Southern Sudanese are not exclusively Christian. Many are animists, so their reaction is as much a cultural one as a religious-based response. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;So is the South Sudan conflict then different than the one in Darfur?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum:&lt;/b&gt; &lt;a href="http://www.tysknews.com/News/ibr-110213_SudanMap.gif"&gt;Which is in western Sudan and north of the new South Sudan…&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Sahelnomad:&lt;/b&gt; &lt;span style="color: black;"&gt;All true.&amp;nbsp; The calamities of Darfur were not between black and Arab Sudanese but between two Arab groups that have historically had tensions. Consequently, even if you divide the two regions, there will continue to be the devastation of divided peoples.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black;"&gt;Desert Bum:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black;"&gt; But this north-south division is not only true for Sudan.&amp;nbsp; These African nations are as much the construct of colonial powers as anything indigenous to the region.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Sahelnomad:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; Sudan’s situation is indicative of the socio-religious fault-line that runs through the Sahel of Africa. Chad, Mauritania, Niger and Mali are also in that zone. And, while Nigeria lacks the racial clash of the Magreb (Arab) north, they’ve been having violent outbreaks this past month in Jos due to the same dynamic.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Garden Keeper:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; Meaning between Christians and Muslims, I assume, which has been an historic problem for Nigeria.&amp;nbsp; It is true that there are Muslims south of the Sahel as well as Christians and animists.&amp;nbsp; However, the Sahel fault-line you speak of is between the Arabs to the north and the non-Arabs to the south, right? &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Sahelnomad:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; Basically.&amp;nbsp; Sudan is particularly complex because the cultural divide is so distinct. The Arabs have attempted to impose their culture, language and religion on the blacks in the South. Many in the south have been forcefully repatriated in the North where they are placed in Islamic schools and completely cut off from their families. There is a distinct disdain by the Arab elements towards the southerners. When I was there it was obvious.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Garden Keeper:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; Why doesn’t the Arab north just let the non-Arab south go?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Sahelnomad:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; The whole situation is further complicated by economics. Southern Sudan is the actual cash cow for the Sudanese economy. The oil that has fueled their economic ascendency is primarily located in the area that South Sudan constitutes. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Garden Keeper:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; Thus the southern territorial clashes.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Sahelnomad: &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Precisely.&amp;nbsp; The northern government tried to change the provincial geographic boundaries unofficially and/or incite another civil clash that would postpone the inevitable.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Garden Keeper:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; So, will Sudan be the Tunisia of the Sahel, the national conflict that kicks off widespread conflagration throughout the band of countries just south of those Arab nations bordering the Mediterranean Sea?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Sahelnomad:&lt;/b&gt; As to whether Sudan becomes a catalyst for changes in Chad and elsewhere is not yet known. It is true that in both Chad and Mauritania the northern ethnic groups dominate those in the indigenous south and there is a constant racial division.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Garden Keeper:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; So is dividing Sudan a good thing or not?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Sahelnomad: &lt;/b&gt;On a church level, this presents an interesting conundrum since the church in Sudan is dominated by southerners who are beginning to become missional towards the north.&amp;nbsp; But the independence of the south might present some logistical impediments since they would now be less welcomed in Sudan to the north. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Desert Bum:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="line-height: 115%;"&gt;If the southern church is beginning to see the north as an obvious mission field, they will need to be careful to not express it in political or historical terms ("retaking the north"), especially now with an international border to deal with.&lt;span style="color: black;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Garden Keeper:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; I just read that Bashir [president of Sudan] will not run again for office when his term is up in four years.&amp;nbsp; A long time out, but protests seem to be developing in Khartoum as well. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Sahelnomad:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="line-height: 115%;"&gt;Samuel Huntington's &lt;i&gt;Clash of Civilizations&lt;/i&gt;&amp;nbsp;speaks of the youth demographic in the Magreb (the Arab nations of North Africa). Most of the protests seem to be fueled by disenchanted &lt;a href="http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/02/arab_league_map"&gt;youth that comprise over 50% of most &lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href="http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/02/arab_league_map"&gt;populations&lt;/a&gt; in the Arab world.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum:&lt;/b&gt; Things are moving so fast it is hard to keep up.&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;So how is Sudan going to differ from Egypt?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum:&lt;/b&gt; In contrast to Egypt to the north, the concurrent separation of South Sudan adds an extreme level of complexity to the Sudanese situation. Also, Mubarak, while considered a dictator, was never condemned for genocide in the International Criminal Court like Bashir has been. He has been under threat of arrest by the international community, the first sitting head of state to be so. If he is stepping down, regardless of an uprising, this places him in a sticky situation.&amp;nbsp; All of which leads me to think that such unrest must have other factors involved as well. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Sahelnomad:&lt;/b&gt; Sudan is a bit different entity than Egypt and other northern neighbors, but I can't help but think that the recent division of the country into two states has not helped Bashir’s cause with his other traditional enemies. What I hear is that in the past their (the Sudanese) striving is not simply racial or religious but, like most of Africa, ethnic. They are loosely held together by force so it will be interesting to see if the recent developments in the South will encourage Darfur and other parts to separate.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum:&lt;/b&gt; Certainly part of the danger of instability in Egypt is the loss of an anchor in Africa, and this now seems to indeed be happening. I think it is unlikely that either Gaddafi in Libya or Bashir Sudan would be facing such opposition if Mubarak were still in power in Egypt. So far the media has only really considered the Arab world and possibly Iran in this so called Arab revolution, but I think it may be time to cast the net wider, starting with Northern Africa and see that there are a multitude of dynamics at work. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: small;"&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt;Garden Keeper:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;span style="color: black; line-height: 115%;"&gt; Not easy to know how to pray for these situations, but pray we must.&amp;nbsp; Disruption can stir a people to be more open spiritually, but transmission of the gospel is generally aided by a peace that brings freedom of communication and mobility.&amp;nbsp; And, too, the common people are more likely to benefit from peace in their land, especially if that peace includes a more just society.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3417045549881117035-8438478142761317464?l=eitherorandmore.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://eitherorandmore.blogspot.com/feeds/8438478142761317464/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://eitherorandmore.blogspot.com/2011/02/nation-is-born.html#comment-form' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3417045549881117035/posts/default/8438478142761317464'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3417045549881117035/posts/default/8438478142761317464'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://eitherorandmore.blogspot.com/2011/02/nation-is-born.html' title='A Nation is Born'/><author><name>HNK</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12053479449588483364</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='24' height='32' src='http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ebhtn-xTJcg/SNxKyUsgDuI/AAAAAAAAAAM/Tl1geImwJ_4/S220/HNK+photo+for+web.JPG'/></author><thr:total>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3417045549881117035.post-8882382931585720531</id><published>2011-01-30T16:23:00.000-08:00</published><updated>2011-01-30T16:23:50.307-08:00</updated><title type='text'>Egypt in an Uproar</title><content type='html'>&lt;b&gt;Either, Or and More:&lt;/b&gt; &lt;i&gt;a conversation between friends that takes a deeper look at our world historically, philosophically, and geo-politically, that attempts to get beyond the sound bites that tend to clog our modern brains. &lt;b&gt;Introducing: &lt;/b&gt;Desert Bum and Garden Keeper.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;You been keeping up with the news on Egypt this week?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;Quite the sudden turn of events.  Seems like something’s astir throughout the Arab world.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;For sixty years, governments in the Arab world have seemed like a geopolitical constant, as stable as the law of gravity. However, in just a matter of weeks and days, Tunisia has overthrown its government and Egyptians have rallied by the thousands to protest and demand the overthrow of President Mubarak, who’s been in power for thirty years. Also, Yemen, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia are facing disturbances of various kinds and causes.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;I heard someone blaming Obama for inflaming the turmoil by not being more supportive of Mubarak.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;Obama is walking a fine line between supporting a regime that is an old friend of the USA and gaining new friends that could possibly take over.  But Obama and the USA have had very little to do with things getting to the point they are right now.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;In Tunisia, Egypt, and these other places, the conflict has been over basics like jobs and food, right?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;And government leaders that were once responsive to their people, but whom now look old and out of touch.  Political and Foreign policy stagnation opposite Israel have also contributed to the discontent.  Nasser had the option of using hatred of Israel to unify Egypt in a way Mubarak has never been allowed to.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;The big question on everyone’s mind is how all this will pan out, especially the protests in Egypt, whether these protests will lead to a new government that is pro- or anti- American policies in the Middle East.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;As far as Egypt is concerned, the most obvious geopolitical strategic issues are the Suez Canal, the Gaza Strip and Israeli Security. However, other problems exist, including Egypt’s position as a stabilizing force in the Arab world and its ability to put pressure on more extremist or oppressive governments, including Sudan with its current independence.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;I think many Americans are worried by the prospect of an Islamist regime arising in Egypt, similar to Iran, positioned ideologically and politically against the US and Israel. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;However, not only does Egypt have a history of secular politics dominated by the fiercely secular military, the Brotherhood in Egypt is not as likely to create a Sunni version of the Islamic Republic of Iran.  Sunnis tend to be more unstable than Shiites as far as radicals go.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;I assume you mean, then, less able to run a country.  Let’s see, Iranians are Shiites and Arabs are Sunnis, right?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;Not quite so simple.  The Islamic world is much more diverse than we Americans presume.  There are significant populations of Shiites in the Gulf, Yemen and Iraq as well, though Egypt’s Shiite population is a much smaller percentage of the nation’s total population.  And lots of non-Arab Muslims, such as Pakistanis, are Sunnis as well.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;Well, this is getting us off-track from the current tensions in Egypt.  Basically Egyptians are Sunni Arabs, right?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;Generally speaking, though there are Christian Arabs as well as non-Arab Egyptians.  Anyway, to get back to the issue of Sunni radicals, even Sunni theocracies, when they exist, are often prone to be secular in nature in their stable incarnations (for example, The Ottoman Caliphate). More worrisome is the possibility that Egypt partially collapses and is wracked by sectarian and political friction, allowing radicals on the fringe to act unimpeded, especially against Israel or international trade in the Canal area.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;So you are saying that even if Egypt doesn’t radicalize like Iran did, a fragmentation of the government could lead to fringe elements like the Brotherhood having great influence in the region.  In fact, isn’t that what happened in Iran?  The revolution against the Shah started off as largely secular and moderate Islam movement, but then in the turmoil that followed the collapse of the government, the radicals seized power and called it their own revolution.  Which, by the way, is what happened in the Russian revolution a century ago, too, between the Provisional Government and the Bolsheviks.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;The big players are unlikely to allow such a situation to come about, or at least they will interfere to try to avoid it.  Europe and Turkey are too dependent on trade through the Red Sea to stand by.  While the United States is not as concerned economically with the Canal, they will see it as playing an indispensable role in ensuring American military influence in the region. All these players will move with extreme care in approaching such a situation. Israel will probably not be as gentle.  It is famous for overreacting to perceived threats, and the possibility of a huge terrorist breeding ground next door will thoroughly spook Israeli leaders.  Israeli responses are likely to include preemptive military strikes, occupation of Sinai, and Mossad assassinations of terrorists, all almost certain to further destabilize Egypt.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;Thus exacerbating the problem.  Cheery thoughts.  But there may be no way to hold back the tide or even guide it at this point.  We always fear uncertainty of the unknown more than the certain bad of the known.  Yet there is nothing outsiders can do to make up for the corrupt, ineffective leadership that has been in place for at least a generation, and which is now leading to this unrest.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;However, it must be remembered that unlike other nations that have fallen into such chaos –  Somalia, Iraq, and Afghanistan – Egypt doesn't suffer from the same existing regional, ethnic or religious fault zones.  Egypt is much more monolithic and stable, more comparable to Tunisia or the Gulf States.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;There are the Copts (Coptic Christians) to consider.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;But they have shown an incredible ability to survive through Egypt's previous rough periods.  And yet, this has been said of unobtrusive religious minorities in other countries such as the Assyrians in Iraq as well.  In any case, Egypt is more likely to fall into prolonged economic rather than political crisis. This is also an important point for the Egyptians to realize: revolution may bring political freedoms but it may not bring economic growth.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;Tell that to the protesters now!  Moreover how can you hold back a nation?  Egypt has been frozen in time since Sadat died in 1981.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;This is particularly relevant as much of the cause for the popular uprising is the great level of unemployment among Egypt's youth.  While they seek freedom, they also seek employment and career opportunities, something they may not find regardless of the outcome of the unrest.  Again, this conforms to Egypt’s position in the Arab world.  While some would describe rulers such as Mubarak, Ben Ali, and Qaddafi as dictators, they might more properly be called autocrats, firm, authoritarian, oppressive, but not as dramatically violent or quick to use secret police to “disappear” dissidents.  This seems to be norm for the 20th century Arab world regimes, with Saddam being more of an outlier.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;I guess we’ll just have to watch it unfold and trust that world leaders have the wisdom to know when and how to act.  I read on Facebook that someone was saying world leader interventions in Egypt will speed up the return of Christ.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;Is that thought of as good or bad, speeding up the return of Christ, I mean?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Garden Keeper: &lt;/b&gt;I just wonder how anyone, including world leaders, can have an impact on a timetable supposedly God alone controls.  Such theological consequences are uncertain and should not serve as guides in geopolitical affairs.  Besides, I think our concerns should be as much about the needs of the people involved no matter how this all plays out.  Like the guy who couldn’t get work in Tunisia and so set himself on fire.  A man that desperate?  His needs – be they economic, political or spiritual – have value as do broader geo-political concerns.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;b&gt;Desert Bum: &lt;/b&gt;Amen to that!&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3417045549881117035-8882382931585720531?l=eitherorandmore.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://eitherorandmore.blogspot.com/feeds/8882382931585720531/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://eitherorandmore.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-in-uproar.html#comment-form' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3417045549881117035/posts/default/8882382931585720531'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3417045549881117035/posts/default/8882382931585720531'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://eitherorandmore.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-in-uproar.html' title='Egypt in an Uproar'/><author><name>HNK</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12053479449588483364</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='24' height='32' src='http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ebhtn-xTJcg/SNxKyUsgDuI/AAAAAAAAAAM/Tl1geImwJ_4/S220/HNK+photo+for+web.JPG'/></author><thr:total>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3417045549881117035.post-1298257515093041837</id><published>2011-01-05T12:11:00.000-08:00</published><updated>2011-01-05T12:20:02.276-08:00</updated><title type='text'>Coming in January</title><content type='html'>"Either, Or and More" is a conversation between three friends that takes a deep look at our world historically, philosophically, and geo-politically, that attempts to get beyond the sound bites that tend to clog our brains.  Join us as this conversation starts January 24.&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/3417045549881117035-1298257515093041837?l=eitherorandmore.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://eitherorandmore.blogspot.com/feeds/1298257515093041837/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://eitherorandmore.blogspot.com/2011/01/coming-in-january.html#comment-form' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3417045549881117035/posts/default/1298257515093041837'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/3417045549881117035/posts/default/1298257515093041837'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://eitherorandmore.blogspot.com/2011/01/coming-in-january.html' title='Coming in January'/><author><name>HNK</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/12053479449588483364</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='24' height='32' src='http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ebhtn-xTJcg/SNxKyUsgDuI/AAAAAAAAAAM/Tl1geImwJ_4/S220/HNK+photo+for+web.JPG'/></author><thr:total>0</thr:total></entry></feed>
